In-depth with Larry Kirwan of Black-47. Larry discusses his music, plays and the meaning of time.
DM) Hello Larry.
LK) Hello, Dominick, a graduate from Stony Brook, or Stoned
Brook as we used to call it.
DM) How did you hear about Stony Brook?
LK) I used to play out at the Hamptons, and everything. I
also knew a guy who worked at the radio station, Lister. You
know Lister, a black guy, a Jamaican guy. That's a while back.
DM) I don't know him. But I'm familiar with areas in Brooklyn
you played in. I'm from there...
LK) I lived in Brooklyn a while. Bay Ridge, Ovington Ave,
86th Street.
DM) What made you move to Brooklyn?
LK) Well, let's see. I was living in the East Village or something
and ran out of money, and met a guy who had an upstairs floor
of his apt I was allowed to play in. Then I was playing in some
bar on 86th St. called Tomorrow's about 3 times a week. Because
I was playing there about 3 nights a week, I started living in
Ovington. My brother came out to the States around that time
and he was living with me.
DM) When you said you were playing there, were you playing
on your own or with Black-47?
LK) No, this was a long time ago, I was playing with different
people then. It was a duo then.
DM) Then when was the official formation of Black-47?
LK) 5 years ago, this month [October]. Chris Byrne and I met
in a bar. Chris is from Brooklyn. He's a New York City cop, and
we met in a bar, and he was in a band that was breaking up that
night, so we decided to form a band that would take over that
band's gigs. So instantly we had a band and we started to play.
The people we were playing to hated us so we figured we had something
going! That was Black-47, and eventually Fred Parcells came down
and started playing trombone with us and then Geoff Blythe started
playing the saxophone. We had a drum machine first, and then
Tom came in later on to play percussion.
DM) So you actually played with a drum machine to begin with.
LK) We still do play with a drum machine sometimes, live.
DM) Why do you prefer a drum machine over a live drummer.
LK) Just two different things, it would depend on the song.
From an economic point of view a drum machine was very feasible
at first. We could play bars, make a living at it.
DM) Then, who was the one who thought of naming the group
Black-47?
LK) I did, it was a term my Grandfather had used in reference
to the great hunger.
DM) He used to mention that a lot?
LK) Not all the time, but whenever he mentioned it, there
was a resonance in his voice, and I knew it was something special,
something that was very dark, brooding, and his own. Like he
would change his personality when he was speaking with the folk
memories of his father, had escaped the famine, and was passed
down to him.
DM) I noticed most of the feel of the band have that dark
feel. They're not exactly the 'She Loves You' variety of songs.
LK) There's a darkness to certain of them. A lot of them are
uplifting. They don't tend to be of the 'Moon in June'.
DM) Why is that the band's feel is not so 'Moon in June'-ish?
LK) Well the moon in June connotates bad lyrics for me, so
I take a pride in my lyrics that they are very specific and about
something. Most lyrics I find are just putrid that are out there.
If there's any darkness in something... if the lyrics are specific
and have a dark feel to them, then the music is going to have
a darkness then too. But at the same time, there's always an
uplifting feeling to them. Take a song like, 'Black-47'... the
two guys that are mentioned are actually escaping the famine,
it's an uplifting feel, t's not all gloom and doom or anything.
DM) How do you go about when you write a song?
LK) I do it many different ways, but one way is to get a lyrical
idea, even a title or something that I really want to write about,
and develop that a little bit, and then write the music to it,
and finish it off with lyrics later, around the music. That will
take a long time usually to finish the lyrics. Well sometimes
it comes very fast, but I might take a while polishing it or
something.
DM) Now, why did you call this album 'Home of the Brave'?
LK) I don't know... it just all seemed to point to it. We
were originally going to call it 'Road to Ruin', but we found
out the Ramones had already used
it. We had the idea for the cover, and Home of the Brave just
really seemed to fit the cover. The odd thing was that we had
already recorded a cassette, our very first cassette we've done,
that we called 'Home of the Brave'. And we had a song we called
'Home of the Brave', so it was just something that was with the
band.
DM) Did you use any of the material from the first two cassettes?
LK) No... well actually we did, we used 'Too Late to Turn
Back', the second to last song on there. It was from one of the
first two cassettes. But it wasn't a conscious thing though.
These songs were all recorded before. Usually we would call the
album the title of one of the song, 'cause they're usually pretty
evocative of something. But I couldn't actually find one that
summer of the album. Like 'Fire of Freedom' summed up the album
before that. I couldn't find a song that totally summed it up,
so I was stuck for a title for a long time, and I remembered
'Home of the Brave'. I mentioned it to a few people who didn't
know the original cassette and they loved it, so that was that.
DM) Now, have you ever heard a song that you felt that you
had written yourself?
LK) Oh yes, I wish I'd written hundreds of the great songs.
I wish I'd written any of Bob Marley's, and of Bob Dylan's, and
of the Clash's. There is so many of them, there's a lot of really
good song writers out there. Not that many right now, but...
I'd say the song writing's format is a little unoriginal at the
moment, but since rock-n-roll, there has been a myriad of good
songs. I could identify with any of them.
DM) How are the dynamics of the band, that you are the main
songwriter, and producer of the band? Are there any problems
that you are taking those extra roles?
LK) In any organization, one person has to take control, because
one person has to be responsible. That's the one who will go
out on the limb, not that the other guys don't by any means,
but there's one guy who will do that extra bit of work, or if
nobody else would do something, he's the one that would pick
up the pieces or whatever. I'd been in bands before where I wasn't
that totally, and I realized when I started this band that I
was going to be responsible regardless if anybody else wasn't
going to do it. That's the only way to have a good band is if
one person totally cares about what's going on. So that's the
dynamic of it. No matter what happens the gig will happen. We
will put up on a good show. I refuse to have a bad gig. It's
got to be 100% effort all the time. If there's one person who's
that was all the time, not just in playing, but in the business
side of it, then that person tends to become the leader of it.
DM) Were you always that way with your other bands?
LK) No, I was always a lazy mother f---er most of the time,
and I realized that its was probably the last rock and roll band
I'll ever be in, so I left rock and roll, because I began to
hate it, and I hated the whole music business and I didn't like
what I was doing myself so I gave it up, and went back into the
theater. I've been away from it for four and a half years so
when i did get back into it, I was totally cleansed from it,
and I was able to see all the mistakes that I made the first
time. Not that I still don't continue to make mistakes, I had
a good idea about what I was about this time. And part of it
was, the fact that you have to take 100% responsibility for yourself.
It's the same in every field, not just in music, but in music
it tends to not be that way. It wasn't so much that I was striving
for success, but I just didn't want to make the same dumb mistakes
that I had made before.
DM) What were some of the mistakes you had made before?
LK) Well, assuming that other people would, do it if I didn't
do it. Which is the same way of all sorts of life, in any business,
and having a band is a business, for better or for worse.
DM) What did you do in theater?
LK) I was a playwright and a director.
DM) Anything that i would know.
LK) I had a book of plays that have been published recently,
called 'Mad Angels'. A number of my plays are done in New York,
but are done outside of New York too. A new one coming on December
1st that's supposed to be done in Germany in the spring and another
one being done in San Francisco.
DM) How is that having the duel career?
LK) It's a little frantic, a little hectic... I give myself
to which ever one is more important at that particular time,
and right now the band is the most important thing. So I work
the other one around it. Being responsible for the band tends
to be the biggest thing always. But there are a few down periods
with the band, when you're not putting out a record. The crucial
period is when you are either making a record or supporting a
record. Occasionally there are a couple of months when not one
of those things are going on, so then I tend to concentrate more
on the theater, but I still write plays all the time... in the
few minutes I can grab. For instance, last night I couldn't'
sleep and I got up at 2 in the morning, wrote from 2 until, things
like that.
DM) You've done 250 shows, ranging from Patty Reilly's bar
to stadiums. Where would you rather be playing?
LK) It doesn't really make a difference. You put 100% into
it. The one difference is in a ridiculous sized stadium, where
there are almost 70,000 people, you have to be almost twice as
big. Your gestures, everything has to be that much bigger to
project outward to the audience. In a place like Reilly's you
try to draw them in a little bit more. It's almost like clicking
a switch inside yourself. It might almost seem the same thing,
but there's a different vocal technique for one thing. Throwing
in rather then throwing out.
DM) How much of music is based on that kind of stuff? The
reading other people, the gestures, the costumes, and the other
materials. All the elements of music outside of the actual notes.
LK) Being in theater I'm very aware of stagecraft, and then
having a guitar strung around your neck all the time, you don't
have the same ability as the lead singer to move. You have to
develop other movements. I'm married to a choreographer so I'm
around dancers a lot. One of the things I've noticed about dancers
is that it's not just the feet, it's the arms or the torsos.
That's how they demonstrate with their whole body. I've developed
ways to move my arms, because you're kind of limited by the guitar.
I've noticed certain moves I make. The stage and the lighting
is all really important, but what's really important is the audience.
The link you have between them. If you can get that link, then
it doesn't really matter the candles you have on stage or the
lighting. Good lights naturally enhance it, but it's that one
on one with the audience that's the thing that counts.
DM) Recently in the music industry, there's been an upsurge
of these compilation albums around one artist. Like the Elton
John Tribute, and the Grateful Dead album. If you could work
on one of these albums, what would you work on?
LK) I wouldn't be that interested to tell you the truth. I'm
more into doing my own stuff. I could have a go at a Leonard
Cohen song, let's see. Something that's very understated, under
produced so you can have freedom to move it. A very dramatic
Leonard Cohen or an old Bob Dylan song. I can't think of any
modern artist I'd want to... maybe a Marley song or a Bowie song.
It would have to be something dramatic that had an inherent drama
song. I can't think of any modern artist although there may be
some.
DM) Why do you prefer to do your own stuff so much so?
LK) It's just a trait I have... In the theater i was never
particularly interested in directing somebody else's plays...
I was more into singing my own songs then singing other peoples.
On stage, Black-47 occasionally plays other people's song. But
that's one thing, it's a femoral thing that you just do for the
moment. The thought of going into a studio and wasting a day...
I don't mean wasting, but spending a day of my life or two days
of my life doing somebody else's song doesn't appeal to me as
much as sitting down and writing a new song of my own and going
into the studio and spending a day or two doing that. That's
what I mean more then anything else.
DM) That's interesting that you say, "wasting... a day
of my life" by going into the studio. I know some people
might think "it's only a day, or it's only two days."
It seems as if, to you, it's much more valuable in that sense.
LK) Yeah, well... listen to the songs I do. Time is always
ticking out in them. Time is ticking out for all of us. There
is always that feeling that time is precious, everything is down
to now. That is one of the few philosophies that Black-47 has
on stage. Do every gig as your last.
DM) What do you do then, in your spare time?
LK) I read. I also have two children. When you have children,
there's a certain amount of time that you'd want to spend with
them, and you should spend them. As you'll find out when you
have children of your own, it tends to take up a certain amount
of your time that you normally spend doing other things. Pretty
much the only occupation I have, besides writing, reading and
playing music is reading. I would say at this point. I don't
watch television. I'm an artist... there's no time. I find that
time is really tight.
DM) What else would you do that you find is a waste of time?
LK) Watching television. I find television so manipulative.
I find it an offensive medium. I find it a dangerous thing. You
are ingesting other people's views in a very passive way all
the time.
DM) How is television different from reading?
LK) Because reading is more of an active role. You actually
have to concentrate on it. With television you can have a glazed
look on your face and be off in a different world. Most people
who watch television, I would imagine, are thinking about something
else at the same time, so they are getting this passive influx
of energy into themselves. Also, I find that television is there
just to sell you things. I'm not against the medium itself, it's
just that it's been so misused. I wouldn't refuse, point blank,
to look at television that had advertisements on it. The occasional
things I might watch might be on public television. I might watch
a Masterpiece Theater or something.
DM) Do you feel that has benefit?
LK) Yes, because there's a little less manipulator... for
instance, it's dealing with a classic, so the only way there
might be a manipulator is if the director wants to put a spin
on it. I find it relaxing to watch too, but, what I'm saying
is, I'm not bombarded with advertising messages. But when it
comes down to it, if it comes to reading a 'Tale of Two Cities'
or watching it on television, I'd much rather read it. I think
I'd get more out of it... I feel better reading it... I don't
mean that in any puritanical way, that I don't want to be entertained,
but I get more entertainment out of getting my own mental images
from it, rather then having my own mental images placed in front
of my face which i must accept.
DM) Is there anything else you feel is a waste of time, like
television?
LK) (thinks for a while) I don't know.
DM) Any time when you say, "I should never have spent
those five hours doing this or that"?
LK) Yeah, sometimes if I spend time drinking, and realize
I wasn't particularly enjoying myself, that is was just the addiction
that kept me there. I don't mean hard core addiction, but the
fact that I wanted to drink. I usually drink 3 pints of beer
a night, in this stage of my life, and sometimes after the third
I'd feel like a fourth for no particular reason, other then boring
company or whatever. If there's no particular reason for me to
be there anymore, I'd feel like that was a waste of time.
DM) Do you ever find yourself, after a day, saying, "This
day didn't hold up to the rest." For example, if you were
out with your friends or whatever as opposed to playing at a
concert like Farm Aid?
LK) No, no. I don't mean in that sense, because, as you can
tell from my songs, most of my ideas come from the friends I've
known or whatever. I'm not saying I'm this driven person or whatever
who has to go home and work or has to go home and read or whatever.
I can hang out just like the other person. I just find that,
with a band like this, when you're self-employed, you're always
with that little bit behind almost. To keep the thing running
smoothly there were those two or three extra calls that I should've
made today that might cause a problem tomorrow and really f*%&
the band up along the road.
DM) I was wondering if, time seemed so precious, that you
would rather do something like a momentous Farm Aid then play
in the local pub?
LK) Each moment has it's own preciousness. I don't quantify
moments, if that's what you mean. No, not at all. I think trap
to fall into, and that would be pretty stupid. You could end
up feeling bad about 90%. I you were to think, "Am I having
this effect?" Cause I'm not a totally driven person. I might
seem that way. I can sit at home and read all day. I have a private
side that's just as happy being private sitting at home and reading,
instead of being out in the world.
DM) Did you ever have those times, where you started regretting
the things you didn't do in your life, because 'time is so precious'?
LK) I'm not that way really. What i might think is, say for
instance. Instead of doing so many live shows at certain points
in my life, it might have been better if I committed some of
the shows to tape. That's a regret I have. Because then I would
have them now... I've forgotten the songs. Although I'll never
listen to them anyway, I've written a lot of good songs with
a lot of different people, and performed them live, and had a
great time doing it, and went on from there, and didn't bother
to record them for whatever reason. I think that's a personal
loss, not a loss for the world, but for personal documentation.
(pause) But, I've heard something once that said, "The traveling
is as important as the arriving." I've always tried to go
along with that.
DM) What do you think that means, "The traveling is as
important as the arriving."?
LK) For instance, if you had this, a mad ambition to be a
rock and roll star and they spend a long, long time trying to
get to that without enjoying that, then everything is set in
that moment of arrival. That moment is going to be so overwhelmingly
great that it will make up for the whole journey. I've never
agreed with that. I've always felt that every moment you have
is precious. It's wise to live your life that. Because you're
never sure when the next one will be.
DM) You said, "...people striving to become a rock and
roll star..." Did you reach that level yet?
LK) (laughs) No, not at all, and I have no particular desire
at this point.
DM) What if for some reason, you became a 'rock and roll star',
and Time and People magazine, start to love you, and your it...
LK) Well, we've been in Time and People, so to some degree,
even though we haven't sold that many records, I've had my 15
minutes, and it didn't particularly... I didn't even read the
Time magazine, until I was in Ireland sometime. I knew it was
there. It was the arrival, the fact that I was in there, was
more important that what was in there. It didn't mean that much
for some reason. I wasn't disrespectful or anything. I was very
glad that it happened. It was good for bookings, and people were
more inclined to take notice of what the band was doing, but
the actual fact that we were in there wasn't all that important.
DM) Well, I want to thank you for your time, this has been
a great interview.
LK) Yeah, it was pretty deep, and fun.
