Richard O'Brien has had an amazing theatrical career of course surrounding his famous Rocky Horror Picture show, but his live performances and albums certainly challenge that cult classic.
DM) Of course the first question I have is the one you had
to expect, about Rocky Horror.
RO) Of course. (Laughs)
DM) Rocky Horror has become a cult legend, but you've done
other things. Is it ever upsetting having your work overshadowed
by Rocky?
RO) Well, when you do something like Rocky which is indefinable
somehow, it always becomes difficult to lose that. Not that I
have any interest in saying goodbye to Rocky. I absolutely adore
being involved and a part of something that is really a phenomenon.
With the film around for 25 years and the show being around even
longer -- still running and continuing to fill house all around
the word -- it's really an exciting and wonderful thing to be
part of that. And I have no problems with that at all.
If it all overshadows anything else, I can understand completely
why and again it doesn't worry me.
DM) Whenever they write your life story they'll undoubtedly
put Rocky Horror first. Which of your works would you want to
put first?
RO) If I was in that editorial position, I would agree with
that. A news editor takes the hot story of the day. People take
the salient moments of ones life -- Those defining moments --
and Rocky's got to be there.
I would have thought that to have actually gotten to the age
I am is a lot more stupefying - being is the thing I would want
to be remembered for.
That means more to me, truthfully, than commercial success. To
be a loved human being is much more important to me then any
of those other things. If you ain't got love in your life, you
got f----all!
DM) So I assume now you have love in your life.
RO) I'm surrounded by it. I have so many lovely people around
me who are supportive, gentle, kind and considerate. I'm so grateful
for every day that I'm on the planet and that continues to be
so.
So all the rest is O.K., but fame is a hollow ground, isn't it?
It's an empty kind of thing. You can have all of the money in
the world, you can have the power, and you can have all of these
things. But if you ain't got stability of the people around you
that cheer you up and you can cheer them up, it's all a completed
wasted journey.
DM) Of all of your works, what do you feel that you artistically
"hit the nail on the head" with?
RO) Of late, I've to teeth away the drama and the ego in any
artistic endeavor that I'm presently working on is and try and
be as simplistic as I possibly can -- and be accessible with
what I do. So if writing a song that has a purity to it, that's
driven by any idea of effect upon, potential kind of audience
that just to be ego-free.
On this new Absolute O'Brien I've done, I've tried desperately
to make the voices as free of ego as I possibly can.
A lot of my friends that know me, know me to sing out and be
a little bit more flamboyant when I'm (performing) live. They're
slightly disappointed by the album. I don't care about that because
there are an awful lot of people who've never seen me on stage
or live, and so I was approaching a different kind of art form
a different medium. I'm a great, great fan of Chet Baker. I just
love his voice, which is so free of an kind of show-off quality.
Lately, I'm just getting so fed up with show-off voices. There
are a lot of wonderful voices out there that sing their heart
out of a song, but at the end of they day, I feel almost as if
it's been kind of a technical exercise and what they've been
doing is showing us how well they can perform. And it gets in
the way of the message of the lyrics and the message of the emotion.
Actually, at the end of the day it becomes a phony emotion. That's
the area I'm working on (in regards to that comment).
DM) I was reading a review of one of the shows you've done recently
and it said, "You were dressed like the devil."
RO) I was dressed as a demon, yes. As a rather sexy demon,
yes. The demon Mestostopholes … horns and a tail.
DM) Why?
RO) Well, I was playing Mestostopholes as a demon from a new
and vastly improved hell. And offering hell as an alternative
afterlife experience to the audience. What I did was an evangelistic
kind of sell of hell. Instead of saying, "you've got to
be a nasty person to come down here." I was saying "you've
got to be a groovy person." I said that hell didn't want
any more of heaven's left overs.
We didn't want the rejects and we are in a position to say, we're
getting rid of all of the losers, the mess-ups, the psychopaths
and all that. We've released them back in the community and we
just hung onto the party people. So, if you wanted the nice kind
of Bohemian party kind of afterlife. There are lots of drugs
down there and booze, and we're allowing all of the physical
pleasures to continue, as an extra kind of plus.
DM) How much of that is your really opinion and how much is
satirical?
RO) I just thought it was up for grabs, isn't it?
When we pass through the door, we don't know whether it's going
to be the Big Sleep. We don't know whether it's going to be the
judgement seat. Whether we stand there and our lives are shown
to us and we can see how abysmally we've done with what we could
have done with each day, and how we've wasted a lot of it. And
I just thought it's time to have a look at it again.
At the end of the day, we're saying that if the prodigal son
can return to the fold, then why can't Lucifer return to God's
bosom. Why does it have to be polarized in that sense? That was
what I was talking about really. Why can't we just get rid of
that idea that you have to live this one life to be O.K. and
everything else falls by the wayside.
I'm a pantheist by the way. I bow down before all of the gods
… I take blessings wherever they come from.
DM) Take what you can get.
RO) Of course, I ain't going to mess with a god. Whether it's
a god of the woods or a god of thieves. As it was in primeval
times, we have all of these manifold gods.
DM) So overall do you believe in an afterlife then?
RO) Yes, I think I do. When I say I think I do, of course
I do. Absolutely. I mean it doesn't make any difference, does
it?
DM) I think what struck me were two stories written about
you -- both regarding an analysis of Rocky Horror. One was describing
Rocky Horror as a great sci-fi spoof, while the other was talking
about this as a ground breaking film that was channeling human
sexuality and relationships that makes one question oneself.
One story seemed like you were just happy and poppy and the other
described you as the philosopher of the `70s.
RO) What I think happened there was: yes, I set out to write
amusing entertainment, so I think what I did was touch buttons
that were deeper rooted. I think Mr. Carl Jung might have had
something to say about Rocky and get into the scenario of that,
and pull it apart, and deconstruct it and look at the symbolism
and look at the psychological motives that were within the piece.
Of course, none of that was intended. So I think what happened
was that my subconscious wrote a starchy show and I invested
in it so that it's also other peoples' (collective) subconscious.
I locked into the kind of bigger consciousness somehow and touched
areas that people have thought about and kept hidden and hadn't
really expressed. Rocky somehow or other releases that. But any
good fairy tale of sorts of does that, truthfully.
DM) A lot of psychologists talk about how the fairy tales
and psychology are intertwined.
RO) Well, there's no reason that fairy tales have been around
for so long unless they're invested with something that we can't
see. Because if you look at the narratives of many of them and
the simple story of many of them, you go and find out what we
have learned from the journey. And yet we want to hear the story
again.
And, in fact, in England we have a very strong tradition in the
theater called pantomime, which you in America you're not aware
of really. But every Christmastime they do a pantomime, which
is generally based on one of those fairy tales. On Cinderella.
On Jack and the Beanstalk. On Goldilocks and The Three Bears,
Mother Goose and that kind of stuff. Very weirdly -- and this
traditionally English -- the person who plays Mother Goose is
always a man in drag. The mother of Aladdin, for instance, is
always played by a man. The price is generally played by a woman.
She's always dressed in some 18th century jerkin and a pair of
fish net tights. And she slaps her thighs quite heartily during
the proceeding sayings. "Ten more miles to Dick Whittington.
Ten more miles to London and still no sign of Dick."
It's the kind of line that comes across. It's a bit like those
medieval mystery plays. I think what you are doing is pricing
up a story that is in the public consciousness since day one.
But these stories are so deeply woven into our backgrounds that
they are satisfying.
DM) So I guess Rocky would be a modern-day fable really?
RO) It's kind of … it's almost a pantomime. It is a modern
day kind of fables. It's babes in the woods really. Hansel and
Gretel.
DM) But I thought Hansel and Gretel's point was not to talk
to strangers.
RO) No, Hansel and Gretel's point is that they live with their
father who is a week man and their stepmother who wants to get
rid of them because they can't afford to keep them and they get
dumped in the forest. And again it's about rites of passage isn't
it. Their journey begins when they're thrown out of the family
home. They have the skill of Hansel, who leaves the pebbles behind
the first time and then he leaves the bread behind and the birds
eat it. And then he leaves the bread behind and the birds eat
it. And then they're locked up and they go to the gingerbread
house and then they meet the Wicked Witch, Brad and Janet meet
Frankenfurter. And Janet saves Brad, and Gretel saves Hansel
by pushing the witch into the fire. It's a similar kind of journey.
But that original journey is as going back to genesis. And we
have Hansel and Gretel as Adam and Eve and the Wicked Witch as
the serpent. It's a rite of passage. It's growing up, leaving
home and going back and saying I'm on my own two feet now dad
and you f---ed us up and pushed us out into the woods, and we're
back here. And at the end of that story, he says the wife's gone
and they give them some of the riches and wealth. The generosity
of spirit for looking after the old parent. It's a very smaller
kind of journey.
DM) Did you have any of that in mind when you were writing
it?
RO) No, no, no.
DM) So does this explain (Rocky's) success in hindsight?
RO) I think perhaps because I didn't know what I was doing
explains some of the success. I've seen and met so many people
who want to write and whatnot to do this kind of manipulative
work.
Ahead of time, (they'll say) "Oh they're going to love this."
Who are they?
"No, do you like it? Does it work for you?"
It's not about them. I think whatever came out of Rocky was because
of it's expression of freedom, it's adolescent kind of drive
gave its edge really and the longevity in the end of the day.
DM) Most people, when they write a story say they're similar
to certain characters in certain aspects. What characters were
you similar to?
RO) All of them, actually. Each and every one of those characters
is a little bit of me. That's what I would think.
DM) At times, I kept thinking, "I would never imagine
running into people lie this in a million years." Like Tim
Curry's character, Dr. Frankenfurter.
RO) Well, we've all met the flamboyant manipulative charismatic
person that is amoral at the end of the day and is quite prepared
to use their charm to get whatever they want. History is full
of these people.
They're very appealing. Especially the charming charismatic villain
is always an appealing character. You can't deny that. There's
something very sexy with somebody who's got that dangerous edge
to them. At the same time, they're very charming and charismatic.
It's a wonderful, wonderful role.
DM) Mentioning the charismatic villain, and knowing you had
the recent show charismatic Satan, is there any similarity between
the two?
RO) Maybe. I've never seen myself the same way that Frankenfurter
is. Frankenfurter doesn't care whether he hurts or not. He has
no opinion about other peoples' emotional feelings. He's a person
that uses people to his own end. That's kind of good. It's not
like we're having a good time from him. We don't care. And even
if we were in his company we probably wouldn't care, he's one
of those dangerous people.
DM) Considering the good and evil we were talking about, he
would certainly sound evil then.
RO) (Pauses) Evil is… if amorality is evil, then yes.
DM) It doesn't sound like you agree with my statement.
RO) I'm not sure whether amorality is evil. I see it as rather
sad.
What you do is never see anybody who is hanging out in your corner.
All you see is somebody useful as a tool for your life and making
your life easier and that's not very pleasant, but that's not
necessary evil. I think some of these people who work in the
city and these people who tell people that they can invest their
savings with them quite successfully and they'll be guaranteed
a return on their investment and all they're going to do is rip
the person off -- I kind of see that as evil.
I see terrible people driven by their sexuality using other people
and exploiting and exhorting other people to certain activities
-- I see that as evil. Taking advantage people.
DM) Isn't that in a way what Dr. Frankenfurter is doing?
RO) Perversion and exploitation should be out of the equation.
They must never be present in the equation. I think Frankenfurter
is a coercer, and he is an exploiter. So in that sense, I guess
yes.
Whether that's evil or not … well, the worst thing he does
is leave them high and dry. It doesn't destroy them particularly.
He wouldn't really care if they did. So he's amoral -- and I
wonder if that's a kind of evil -- I don't know how far he'd
go really. That's an interesting question. How far would Frankenfurter
go to make sure he was satisfied to his own ends. I don't know
the answer to that question. Maybe I should ask myself that.
DM) The next question is the one you're asking yourself. How
far would he go?
RO) (Laughs) I think he'd make sure he'll look after number
one. I don't think he has any power trip. I don't think he's
interested ruling the world for anything like that. I think he's
interested in his own kind of hedonistic kind of pleasures. To
that extent, I think he'll be quite willing to go as far as he
wanted and he would leave people behind.
If he had a fling with somebody one night and he saw somebody
a little groovier the next, he'd have no bones about hitting
on them and leaving the other person slightly bereft and feeling
used. He does use people.
DM) So it sounds like he would go pretty far in that sense.
I find it kind of interesting that you have such a range of characters
running from the moral to the immoral, to the amoral.
RO) I have a great strain of morality that turns through myself.
I don't have any problems in dealing with the amoral. I have
a strong line in dealing with what I think is right and wrong.
I know obscenity and it ain't necessary the dirty joke or somebody
having a bit of dirty sex somewhere. That's not a problem. I
think when we look at Nazi Germany, I see pure evil and pure
obscenity there and what we have to do is put it all into perspective.
And all the rest of it is kinda easy.
DM) So immoral to you is something like Nazi Germany?
RO) Nazi Germany was completely immoral, yes. I was invited
to a Friday night dinner with a friend where the rather was a
rabbi with the local synagogue here, and he lost his father and
the brothers in the concentration camp in Czechoslovakia. And
I turned up to this Friday night dinner which I knew was very
special and I went and I was on my best behavior. And this man
came up to me and said, "Richard tell me what is the height
of self deception."
I said, "I have no idea."
He responded, "When somebody fakes an orgasm when they're
masturbating." What he was saying was he didn't give a s---
about the dirty jokes. He knew what obscenity was about. And
anything can happen around this table tonight when they're sitting
around taking it. As long as there's no mean sprit and evil in
your heart, we're fine here.
The generosity of the spirit, I took on board as great. It was
f---ing great.
DM) Communication was the key that night.
RO) It's about getting a line on morality of what's right
and what's wrong. We run on a course with the "Dumb and
Dumber" and "South Park" and all of that kind
of s---. If we're not careful, we're just going down a puerile
road, which is just questionable.
At the end of the day, we're kind of brutalizing it and desensitizing
it. If we're not careful, we're just damaging the young people.
However there's nothing wrong with a little bit of lavatorial
humor amongst children and adults. It's fine, it's just fine.
It's questionable as to whether prime time television should
be feeding them that particular carrot.
DM) Do you think stuff like "South Park" is immoral?
RO) I think "South Park" is puerile. I hate the
animation. I think the animation is such an abominable and tawdry,
that it drives me to distraction, because I love good quality
animation. And when you've got something as well written as the
Simpsons happening and it's been happening for 15 years and the
writing sublime and satirical. You know, along comes "South
Park" and it's such an easy, cheap joke like "Dumb
and Dumber" and "Beavis and Butthead" it's all
just bloody. All you're doing is writing for f---ing 14-years-olds.
What's the point?
